Comments on: Why you should care about Obama’s waffling on gay issues

By: TD

TD — Sun, 31 May 2009 05:49:50 +0000

Mael,

I’m not sure where you’re getting your evidence, because support for marriage equality is growing, especially among younger generations. A quick glance at all of the polling done on the issue in the United States…

http://pollingreport.com/civil.htm

… shows that at the very least, support for marriage equality hasn’t dropped. Nate Silver offered a fairly good analysis not too long ago on this polling:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/gay-marriage-by-numbers.html

And, in addition to that, two national polls have given full marriage equality (as opposed to civil unions) a plurality:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/two-national-polls-for-first-time-show.html

But even setting all of that aside, supposing you were right and “support for gay marriage has dropped,” that doesn’t mean anybody should stop their activism.

The biggest enemy of equal rights is ignorance. Many people who oppose marriage equality and equal rights do so because they don’t realize the pain that the current situation can cause. They don’t know the human face of it. They don’t realize everything that denying marriage rights involves. We need more people to speak out. It’s not impossible to change minds.

Also, what makes you think that Iowa will turn back? The state legislative leadership has said it won’t do it, so any such attempts are effectively dead for a year. By then, I’m guessing people will discover (1) that gay people having equal rights isn’t going to destroy society and (2) there are even economic benefits to allowing same-sex marriage.

And, by the way, tossing in San Francisco as a negative image does you no favors, either. It turns out that most Americans actually have a favorable opinion of San Francisco:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/13/719435/-Poll:-Americans-love-France,-San-Francisco,-Europe,-and-NYC

You’d better find a new bogeyman.

By: Mael

Mael — Sat, 30 May 2009 20:14:22 +0000

I think it is far better to stop the activism. It is scaring people especially when San Fransisco and the Fulsome street parade is becoming the image of what being gay is. It isn’t helping the cause. It is guaranteeing the eventual passage of a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman forever. Since 2007 support for gay marriage has dropped almost ten points and some polls show as much a 77% as being in support of traditional values. This take over the world idea for homosexual kind is failing horribly. It looks like Gay marriage will be turned back in Iowa and Maine and it would be turned back in CT and even in VT if the people could vote on it. Why not live and let live? Pushing gay oriented anti-bullying and foolish programs forcing kindergartners to be exposed to gay marriage is not winning any converts. It is causing people who would support the cause on other fronts to abandon it. Also it is unifying opposition with groups like http://www.narth.com beginning to rise in prominence. Their conventions have been growing every year. People may be out of the closet but living in denial is a closet of its own.

By: Kate Doak

Kate Doak — Wed, 20 May 2009 12:29:00 +0000

Speaking as an outsider, I think that you Americans seriously need to wake up to yourselves about LGBT people in the Military. Look at those of us over here in Australia for example. We’ve allowed Lesbians and Gays to openly serve in the military for years, ditto with Police officers and it hasn’t hurt our preparation levels one bit. If anything, its made our military more effective and robust, as once straight servicepeople saw that LGBT service people are only interested in doing their jobs, they were more willing to get in an do their own.

If you jokers want to remain a world power, stop letting ideology get in the way of practical matters. If they can preform the job just as well as what a straight person can, they should be allowed to serve.

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 15 May 2009 02:36:10 +0000

to perspective:

How dare you tell others to be respectful and not attack! Who are you to say that homosexuality is sinful or unnatural? Not only is it incredibly presumptive and arrogant on your part, but it is also an insult to me and to anyone who doesn’t agree with your twisted interpretation of the Bible. What do YOU know about what is natural and what is not? Who made you God? Talk about offensive!

You conveniently interpret the passages about slavery and submission of wives to “fit with the context of the times” but you don’t do the same for issues around homosexuality. Not all heterosexual marriages result in pro-creation and not all sex acts engaged in by heterosexuals are with the intent of pro-creating. Is oral sex (for example) therefore also undeniably unnatural?

You can go ahead and continue to rationalize away the passages that justify slavery yet stick to literal interpretations of passages on homosexuality. And you can continue to hypocritically interpret the Bible to fit your own prejudice and discomfort with people that you don’t understand. I don’t give a flip. But keep it to yourself and keep it inside the walls of your church.

By: To perspective (but to tb this time)

To perspective (but to tb this time) — Thu, 14 May 2009 03:31:53 +0000

I agree with you, as would most liberals, that sexual orientation should be irrelevant when it comes to military service. However, there are soldiers being discharged from the military due to their sexual orientation, which means that under the current statute, it obviously isn’t irrelevant. That is why don’t ask, don’t tell needs to be changed.

By: tb

tb — Thu, 14 May 2009 01:57:35 +0000

People with perspective and experience (read: almost no hyper left-wing commentators) know that don’t ask don’t tell is the best and most realistic way to address homosexuality in the military. For every one or two hackneyed situation you can cite regarding it’s failures, countless problems are avoided by simply making sexual orientation irrelevant, the way it should be. Homosexuals should not be barred from serving in the military, but simply asking them to make it irrelevant (the policy does more but not much) is by no means too much to ask.

By: To perspective

To perspective — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:42:28 +0000

You said “Please do not compare gay marriage to slave rights or the Apartheid in Africa. There is nothing sinful or unnatural about race.”

At one time, the justification for slavery was Biblical. Jefferson Davis once said that “slavery was established by decree of almighty God.” Genesis 9:25-27 says “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, ‘Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.” It was believed that the Canaan then settled in Africa and his descendants were the Africans that were enslaved and discriminated against throughout the world.

So you may say that there is nothing sinful or unnatural about race, but at one time, the pro-slavery and pro-segregation arguments had the same basis as your anti-gay argument today. And much in the same way, one or two hundred years from now, our descendants will look back and wonder what the hell the majority of Americans in our time were thinking.

By: bc

bc — Wed, 13 May 2009 18:10:04 +0000

To “come out, come out”

Your second paragraph is a clear demonstration of why bisexuality has the stigma it does on campus. Bisexuality isn’t just something cool/hot that people laugh about… its a legitimate and important part of people’s identities, and I assume (though I cannot speak for anyone else) that people want more acceptance than just random dudes who want to have a threesome with you. That’s like saying, “Oh you’re Asian, you’re exotic, dudes who think Asians are cool will like you.” While being able to joke and laugh is great, it’s also unfair to make it sound as simple as that.

Anyway, I’m not trying to start anything at all in the comments section. Originally I just wanted to comment that this is a great article, brings up interesting and valid points, and is definitely something that I enjoyed reading.

By: perspective

perspective — Wed, 13 May 2009 13:14:27 +0000

OK, I’ll take these one at a time
1. Something “feeling good” does not mean it’s natural or moral. I’m not sure why you assume these two are automatically connected. Sex is meant for reproduction, which is obviously only possible if the sex if between a man and a woman.
2. The Bible does not contradict itself, and I would challenge you to read it through to realize that. The excerpts you’re referencing are out of context in some cases (woman not talking, submitting to their husbands) and completely wrong in others (the Bible being “cool” with slavery). The one passage in particular which contains both “wives submit to your husbands” and “slaves obey your masters” is talking about being content and peaceful and not causing unnecessary trouble for those in authority over you. The two specific positions were merely examples from the time of people who answered to authorities, and both were followed by commands for those in authority to treat wives and slaves with love.
3. Loving someone and thinking their behavior is moral are two different things. Jesus commands us to love everyone, but that does not mean that no matter what people do Christians are commanded to sit by and send love from afar. On the contrary, Jesus confronted sinners (like the money-changers in the temple). Speaking out against immoral behavior is a command just as loving your neighbor is a command.
4. Please stop the personal attacks. They make civil debate all but impossible. If you want to push tolerance of all viewpoints/”sexual orientations,” why does the conservative stance not deserve tolerance as well?

By: ajax

ajax — Wed, 13 May 2009 02:52:05 +0000

Perspective needs to get some perspective.
He (or she) can’t differentiate between one’s sexual orientation and one’s sexual activity. News flash! Sexuality is something from within that we tend to discover during puberty. It is wholly natural whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. Denying people civil rights under the law because of one’s narrow and bigoted religious belief is perfectly comparable to how slaves were treated. Denying gays equality under the law because their natural sexuality isn’t your natural sexuality is untenable, evil, ignorant, and immoral. One is gay with or without the act of sodomy. How is being gay a sin is said gay person hasn’t even had sex but is still gay? Clearly the only true sin here is believing that only your kind exists and therefore anyone inherently different must be punished to please your make-believe God of choice.